A Post at Haal's Blog
"Islamic School" was the title of the post.. The comments kept going on and were getting longer. Haal mentioned to me before that she wants short comments. Respecting her will, I decided to carry the discussion here since i do not mind long comments.
Please visit http://www.thewillto.blogspot.com or simply click on Haal under blogs i find ineresting on my side bar. Read the Post, and you'll figure out the rest.
Press comments to continue.
posted by Dalulla at 4:43 AM
19 Comments:
Loulou said:
Dallula,
"Criticism should be a means to better things not attempt to destroy or break."
"Again, freedom of choice. Even God gave it, now humans want to take it away?"
I don't understand why you are in such a panic. No one is destroying you or taking freedom away from you.
Dalulla said:
I also don’t understand why you got the impression I was panicking? “You” ? Well, actually no one can take my freedom away, and I didn’t understand that either. Why did u think I thought I was referring to myself? I am a very free person more than u can imagine, and I never felt, feel or will feel so. The reason why I feel so is because I am always in pursuit of understanding Islam and applying its teachings to my life and the more I get into Islam, the more freedom I feel, simply because Islam sets you free from weakness and fear, but at the same time encourages respect which is the key to many other traits.
I would just like to add something (off topic) that I felt was important for me to point out to. Writing doesn’t usually reveal one’s intended vocal tone, emotion or expressions as direct face to face talks do. I just wanted u to know, in my comments I do not intend aggressiveness, on the contrary serenity and care are my usual tone with most people. I cannot deny some times I do get aggressive but not with just anyone, but maybe with those who know me well, because they usually understand what lead me to be this way, and also because I usually reopen the subject and explain myself for being aggressive and sometimes even asking pardon. So I beg your pardon if you got that impression from my comment addressed to you.
Loulou said:
We all noticed a certain phenomenon & we are questioning it. Am sure that occasionally you notice things & question them too.
Dalulla said
Of course I do, but this post was not just questioning, it was also answering. And my comments were about these answers.
We are supposedly having a civilized interaction, open to agreement and disagreement. It is not a fight and should not get personal; at least that is my opinion.
Loulou said:
Do you always feel so threatened whenever you don't get 100% approval for everything you do?
Dalulla said
The ÿou”again. Why do u think I am threatened. I do not expect approval all the time. And sure do not believe in manipulation. I believe in fruitful discussions, where I may be proven wrong, and being convinced of an opinion contrary to mine. But only when the opinion is on proper basis. My and anyone’s basis should be religious guidance, and that is not my opinion. Guess who’s? (I am asking, not being sarcastic)
Wama khalktu al jun wal ins ila lya3boudoun. If we all go in depth into the meaning of this verse, letting go of as much of our worldly materialistic desires, maybe we would be able to apply as much of it as we could. But what is happening with many people is not that, even myself, there are many things I am still unable to apply, due to human weakness and not because I am refuting or creating criticism or even arguing that certain things are not applicable or necessary to be a true obedient Moslem. All of this is related to the way a child is brought up and also school values working alongside with parental guidance. The educational system does play a very important role if and when applied properly and we cannot pull out religious teachings from the educational system. Islamic Education should be as important as any other subject or even given more importance in our educational systems.
Loulou said:
"In a country like Egypt for instance, which is supposedly supposed to be an Islamic country, there are stores which serve, pork and Alcohol."
At the height of Islamic rule, in the days of the Abu Bakir & 3omar, Jews & Christians in Islamic countries had not only their food stores but also their own court systems. Now you can't even bear for them to have their food served in the same place as your food? When you go to non-Muslim countries do they prevent you from having halal food stores when you want?
Dalulla said:
No, no, no. You got that all wrong, I didn’t mean that at all, what I meant was, why can’t it be alright for anyone to have whatever shops they want to have. Honestly in Egypt I didn’t come across any food shops labeled Islamic. (maybe there are, but I don’t know of them). But I do not see a problem why that should bother anyone anyway.
That is not what will segregate people from one another. The issue is much bigger than a label. It is the way people treat one another that matters more from my point of view.
Loulou said:
I personally lived in America for 4 years & I used to buy halal meat from Stop & Shop & Walmart. And all you have to do if you want to avoid alcohol in your food is read the ingredients.
I don't see what difference it makes to you if other people are buying pork or alcohol. The point is you can get your halal food whenever you want it.In any Muslim country the vast majority of slaughter that takes place is halal. It is certain that if you buy beef or chicken it will be halal. So my question stands what does it mean to take the same halal food, put it in another store, stick an Islamic sign on the shop? You are still eating the same thing as everyone else.
Why worry about pork or alcohol when you're not going to be buying those anyway?
Dalulla said:
The ingredient issue is not applied everywhere, even here in Egypt which is supposed to be an Islamic majority as u argued. And where some foreign countries are concerned, the same also applies. Some years back, my uncle was in Denmark and was offered a drink, he actually asked if it were alcoholic or not and was told no. After he drank some of it someone else told him it was alcoholic (percentage was not large but was there). So there is no guarantee. On the contrary my uncle’s wife (British/Christian) once actually opened my mouth and took out a pastry then told me it had pork in the stuffing. But not every one is like that, some people are bias.
If you are living in Egypt, u might be aware of a beverage called Fayrouz. Fayrouz when opened ferments and ends up containing a percentage of alcohol. Traces maybe, but for some people who are really concerned about avoiding any traces of alcohol is not good news. After hearing a rumor about this fermenting issue, my father took it to his lab and tested it for himself, and indeed confirmed the rumor to be a true fact. Same with the so called non alcoholic beer. Now can u tell me how any consumer would be aware of this fact since it is not written on the label of the drink? For credibility, test those drinks yourself.
Loulou said Dalulla said:
"Loulou, if Islam was properly taught and embedded within Moslem children whether in Moslem Countries or not, there would have been a major difference in most Moslem societies."
Then Islam should be taught properly to all children - not just a select few.
Dalulla said
Why are you saying Islam is the one selecting? It is the people who select whether to learn about it or not, whether to understand and apply it or not. What also makes it more difficult is the government system, which doesn’t abide completely to the Sharee3a or applies it. So people must make efforts and Islamic Schools are one of those efforts. Allah Gives people freedom of choice. But at the same time we shall all be asked what we did with ourselves and children in this life.
Parents shall be asked whether they gave them the proper guidance or not, then leave them to lead their lives the way they choose after they grow up. At least when they meet God and are asked if they have done what they were required to do where giving proper basis is concerned, they will not have blank faces and crippled tongues before Allah the Almighty. Belittling the role of schools is not right in my opinion, because a kid spends many hours in school and therefore it does matter in a child’s upbringing.
Loulou said:
Am sorry but I feel that when people are brought up to think they are the only ones who are Islamic & everyone else is kuffar this creates polarization & extremism. We are all Muslims. We are all equals. If you believe you are holy & above criticism because you went to this school or that then you will think you have a monopoly on the truth & you will not be open to debate or criticism by others you don't consider as 'Islamic' as yourself - let alone to non-Muslims.
THAT is the root of extremism. Extremists are people who think they are mursaleen - that their version of Islam is more 'pure' than everyone else's. They think they have a monopoly on God & the truth & to them the views of anyone who disagrees are kufr.
Dalulla said:
What you are saying about the kuffar bit is not Islamic. Islamic teachings do not encourage Moslems to refer to others as kuffar. Just wanted to add, kafir means non believer (I know you already know that). We are Kuffar to Christians and Jews, Christians and Moslems are kuffar to Jews. Is that a reality or not? I do not feel it is an insult. It really is not an insult as many people think it is. But for some reason, culture turned it to an insult for some reason. In all cases No school (at least now a days) would or CAN actually plant such ideas in kids minds (for many reasons).
But for a Jew to call a jew as kafir or Christian to call another fellow Christian as kafir or Moslem to Moslem same, then that would not be accepted not even by Allah. Extremism is not Islamic either. It is ignorance, that is if you mean the extremists like the terrorists or the ones who go around calling other people As kuffar just because for instance a woman is not wearing hijab or a man is wearing trousers etc… etc. Islam encourages tolerance and kind advise. Ed3o ila Rabika bel hekmaty wal maw3ethaty al hasana.
Loulou said:
Well guess what? God does not reside in anyone's backpocket. He guides whomever he wills so don't assume he guided you & forgot everyone else. Islam is a religion of fiqh, ijtihad & most of all consensus of the Umma. We can't have debate & consensus if you are Islamic & am not.
Dalulla said
By saying that God guides whomever he wills you are saying that God chooses whomever he wants and discards whomever he also wants from Hedaya????? And what is this about assuming God forgets? A3otho billah. God does not forget Loulou, and I certainly know better than to fall into that sort of sin.
And No. It doesn’t work that way. If you are referring to the verse that says: Inaka la tahdy man a7babt walaken Allaha yahdy may-yashaa. Then no again. Many people do not really know what this verse means. Part of this hedaya relies on us, Allah just helps greatly with it. Or He wouldn’t have given us freedom of choice. He would not have taught us how to do Istighfar (repentance). The idea is for someone to want to be Good, but for instance is weak in front of sin or worldly attractions, so we are told that all we have to do is, in our hearts really want it (May-yashaá referring to those who want, not Who He favors) and ask God to aid us to be better people and to try to work for it. Otherwise there would simply be an implication that God is unjust by this favoring process, which is wal 3ayatho BELLAH not true of course. What God does is facilitate it in His own ways. But God is not sitting on His throne picking out people for hedaya and leaving some astray. I assume you know Allah is Just and Fair.
Why do you think I think I am better than you or anyone else? You could very well be much higher in rank in the book of God than I.
And why do you think that I think that God guided me and…..this is pure nonsense …sorry to say so, but truly it is.
I definitely am not better than anyone else, and I pray I never ever get this feeling ever. Arrogance is an extremely abhorred quality by Allah and His prophet. Allahomma i7fathna all from kebr arzokna makaram al akhlak wal din.
Haal said:
So what makes anyone so sure that these islamic schools dont breed extremist and closed minded children. Are you sure that during these islamic classes a teacher wont be passing some hidden, extreme thoughts in the midst of his/her teachings! How would you gurantee something like that wont happen!
Dalulla said
Why are you underestimating children’s intelligence? What do you mean pass on hidden, extreme thoughts? And why is it that this only applies to Islamic schools? This may happen any where, not just in and Islamic School.
How can you guarantee that in any other school thoughts of the following sort won’t be passed on: How can you be sure a teacher will not flirt around with his female student or even males and won’t give them the impression it is an alright thing to happen? How can you be sure the teacher will not be telling them it is alright for gays and lesbians to have a right to live freely in society simply because he/she thinks so? How can you make sure your daughter won’t come home one day and all of a sudden tell u I am moving in with my boyfriend, oh and by the way I am having a baby but not sure who the father is? How can you make sure your kids won’t tell you to mind your own business and butt out of their lives while u r merely trying to give them some advice? Many things to list.
Things like these are already happening and even worse.. So why is it that you think that only the Islamic label and conduct to be applied will be a threat?
You also mentioned earlier about Christian Schools. Why didn’t you criticize those for having Saint names and nuns teaching in them. No Islamic School will tell a Christian no if they want to be enrolled, but the fact and the matter is, no Christian will be interested, and actually I was in a school back in Saudi Arabia, An English School (not labeled as Islamic though) and we had Christians in it, both students and teachers, in the boys school and the girls. We all mingled just fine. Why didn’t you think that in Christian schools attempts won’t be made to make Moslem students revert from their religion? I am not suggesting that would happen because I would never think they would do something of the sort anyway, at least not in a school.
WE NEED SOME REFORM FOR OUR SOCIETIES TO CORRECT THE DOMINENCE OF NEGATIVE CULTURAL TRAITS WHICH HAVE BEEN PICKED UP AND PASSED TO OUR SOCIETIES.
I can list so many negative things those open minded schools do to kids.. but that again is not a general rule.. It would be unfair to generalize about anything at all from my perspective that is.
Simply seeing that living in a shop where everything around us is put in a label 'islamic' will make the muslim society better is an absolute case of naivity. And anyone who questions what happens behind doors, gets the whining style: Why attack islam, why wanting to take our freedom away..... Over simplifying phenomenas!
Ah, and I see this pork and wine argument brought up by D., adding to the fake whining tone! Pork eih and wine eih. It is not that you have to ask if your meat is pork or beef everytime you eat! Or if your coke is alchol free!
PLEASE!!!
Dalulla said:
Apparently you did not understand what I meant by that bit Haal. I was saying that every one is free to do what they want, so why when something is labeled Islamic it bothers people, like you for instance and many others I am sure.
Where the food and drinks are concerned, nothing is for sure now, just like the case of the Fayrouz and the non alcoholic beer, and God knows what else. I know that this is not a major problem, but a few things are beginning to come up.
Tarfah Said:
There is no assurance that Islamic schools can provide moderate, tolerant teachings.
Dalulla said:
So. Don’t enroll your kids in one, but other people want them. These Islamic Schools did not pop out of no where. Simple supply and demand theory.. People want something, are craving for it, are now finding it. And the need is growing, so the numbers of schools are increasing. If there were a threat from these schools, at least the demand would not be increasing.
Tarfah said:
And as Haal said, the level of risk of implementing extreme ideas and behaviour are high. Plus, isnt it useful to check who the teachers at this schools are? What are their qualifications? Where did they graduate from? Or we are just interested in the Coran Class that is taught by the arabic teacher?
THere are lots of investigations to be done re/ this islamic school other than the name and the 'label'. Not because it is islamic school it means GOOOD STUFF! Not at all. I personally am extra careful with whoever call itself Islamic, and whoever calls himself 'religious'.
I dont agree with Dalula's that school is an important source of religious teaching. Schools are meant to be a place that teaches, in addition to 'morals and good conduct of behaving', methodologies and approaches to understand whatever is presented and not to take things at face values. Build analytical and free thinking skills. Religion sciences have their places and it should be the role of the parents and the mosques. And I personally think that the doze of religion at my school was more than enough for me.
Tarfa
At least in an Islamic School there will be more discipline. I honestly do not know whether to label my school as Islamic or not, But I guess u would label it so since it was divided. A large Compound for girls and another at a distance for guys, but I never felt I was deprived of anything except for having a male’s presence in my class which was fine with almost every one in the school including the non Arabs and Christians. We had art classes, sculpturing, music classes, bi annual school festivals, sport events and sports day, and graduation ceremonies and proms (but with no guys..so who cares?!)
I was enrolled later on in an American University, I had no problem fitting in, and as a matter of fact many of my colleagues thought I was brought up in Europe where I was born or the US. My cousins and many of my friends from the same schools also got enrolled in the same university and were in the same school and environment as I, but none of them had trouble fitting in open communities. Actually they did quite well, maybe better than others who were brought up in what may be called as open minded (although I don’t understand what open minded means exactly from many others’ point of view)
Oh and by the way, most people that are trying to be religious do not try to avoid anyone as you mentioned (about avoiding those who are Islamic). Therefore, I guess those are luckier than you.. They get to mingle with just about anyone, with no barriers. They have more tolerance I guess. (At least the ones that truly understand what it means to apply Islamic ways in their lives).
salaam dear, will follow link in just a moment. my husband is from Pakistan, by the way.
Dalulla,
I know that Loulou have a good head on her shoulders, it is just the nature of the virtual discussions that creates misunderstandings sometimes. Even if you both disagree I think all is good.
I'm not a muslim so I won't comment much on Islamic schools because I have never been to one and it is hard for me to evaluate.
I want to point out that Catholic Schools are very strict and are all over the world and Nuns used to manage those schools based on the Christian faith. I'm Orthodox not Catholic but I was taught the Catholic faith in school. My question is why the muslims are OK with the Catholic schools and are not OK with Islamic schools? I find it kind of hypocrisy for a Muslim family to put it's full trust in a Catholic school and not an Islamic one.
I'm against taking the name of God out of schools. Kids are out there in a cruel world and encounter insanity everyday. They are the target of the alcohol business, smoking business, sex business and teaching them their religion in school is not a disaster for pete's sake.
I think there should be a choice for parents who wish to do the religious teachings at home rather than school. As for parents teaching religion....let us be practical and ask ourselves How many parents take the time to teach their children their religion at home really?
"Why are you saying Islam is the one selecting?"
I didn't say anyone was selecting. I said that if there is a problem in how Islam is taught in the mainstream then it should be fixed so that everyone has equal access to 'proper' Islamic education. The answer is not to set up an Islamic school to teach one group of kids good Islam while the rest get taught bad Islam. That is not fair.
"Why did u think I thought I was referring to myself?"
Didn't mean you personally. Just the point of view you appeared to be expressing. Words like 'destroying & breaking' & having freedom taken away seemed to be too emotional for the discussion. Is asking why people are doing this or that destroying them?
And the freedom argument doesn't really add anything. Sure you're free. Everyone is or should be. But when explaining why you think something is good, saying I am free is not a reason.
Always thought that for someone to claim they or their way of doing something is Islamic is a bit arrogant because it suggests only they know the Islamic way of doing things.
If you look back at Islamic history, you'll find that followers of different sects & factions never called themselves Islamic. You had Malikis & Hanbalis & Sunnis & Shia - each group had a different interpretation & differed with each other & sometimes even fought with each other but none of them dared to wrap itself in the Islamic label & monopolize it & make it their private property.
Islamic schools, Islamic parties, Islamic stores, Islamic uniforms - all these are modern phenomena & I don't think they are a sign of health in society.
In Algeria, a country that was already torn by ethnic conflicts between Arabs & Berbers etc....Islam could have been the unifying force since all Algerians were not Arabs but all were Muslims. What happened was the opposite. One group calls itself the Islamic whatever & sets up its institutions, schools, universities, political parties etc...& argues that anyone outside their group is not Islamic.
How do others who happen to disagree with this group's version of Islam respond?By setting up rival institutions that exclude members of the first group.
The more extreme groups called their opponents kuffar & issued fatwas against their lives. Hundreds of intellectuals, journalists, politicians were assassinated because of these fatwas.
The less extreme ones didn't go that far but still ignored & refused to debate the opinions of others.
And the third group, the ones who couldn't fit into any of the existing 'Islamic' clubs, & who felt threatened & suppressed by all of them responded by becoming 'extreme' secularists - calling for suppression of all religious expression & again some of these groups began to resort to violence & assassinations etc...
The result was a factionalized, fractured society & a civil war that has cost close to 120000 lives so far.
Being half-Algerian & having seen the effects of all this which incidentally can still be seen in Algerian society even after the war stopped, it's very difficult for me not to be extremely cynical about this kind of religious labelling. It's stupid that in a country where 90% of the population is Muslim people spend so much effort & waste so many lives arguing about who is Islamic & who is not & fighting so-called 'jihads' against other Muslims.
To raise kids with the mentality that you are more Islamic than other kids your age because you went to this school just seems to me like a recipe for fitna. The last thing we need in the Middle East is more fitna.
loulou,
Islamic schools, Islamic parties, Islamic stores, Islamic uniforms - all these are modern phenomena & I don't think they are a sign of health in society"
maybe you witnessed bad experience in algeria, but it needs not be that way. islamic parties and weddings for ex.: i just went to one recently and it is quite noce. and what is islamic about it is that it was for women only, so the girls were free to wear what they wanted and dance freely while not doing anything wrong at the same time . the bride was originally veiled, and in her wedding got to wear a nice dress, have her hair done and also dance and sing.
and i didn't feel that it is in conflict with anything else. other people have regular weddings all the same. they are not branded as kuffar. labels are put to things to distinguish them from others if they are different. and since this wedding for example is the way it is so as to cnform to islamic law, then it is apt t call it islamic wedding.
stores: if it specializes in hijab wear it could be called that. sometimes (not nowadaya thank GOd) it was very difficult to find something suitable for a veiled girl to wear. and these stores target muslim women only i guess. and it is easier for a muslim woman to go to one of those than to look in other regular stores.
so, if the shop, store, school whatever is different than the main stream in a way that is related to islam, it could be named that for the sake of ease of understanding. also the islamic or shar3y swimsuit, can't find another name for it, can you? sometimes a label is just what it is, a label to know what this is.
"and what is islamic about it is that it was for women only, so the girls were free to wear what they wanted and dance freely while not doing anything wrong at the same time ."
doshar I get invited to weddings like that all the time & yes they are really nice. UAE locals always have segregated weddings. They don't call them Islamic weddings here though. It's the only type of wedding they've ever known so it's just called a wedding:)
Back home in Algeria & in Morroco it's like Egypt. You get invitations for Islamic weddings. And they are all so different. Some allow music & dance & some don't allow music at all because they think all music is haram. And they have no video or photography because photography is haram. They warn you not to bring a camera. These are sometimes called 'waleema'. But what they write on your invitation card is Islamic wedding.
Others just have a segregated wedding with men & women in different rooms but with music & videos & everything & still call it Islamic.
Some Islamic weddings have zikr & nasheed instead of music. Others consider both zikr & nasheed to be bida3 that should be banned.
The point is everyone considers their wedding Islamic if they're a Muslim. And if you tell them your wedding is not Islamic then they probably won't like it.
Anyway, weddings are not the real problem. That's a minor issue. It's Islamic schools & Islamic political parties that I'm concerned about.
I don't have children yet but this discussion has made me realize it's very important to discuss these issues with my future husband. I know I don't want my children going to any school that calls itself Islamic precisely because after what I've seen I would not trust outsiders or strangers to teach my kids religion. That is something I have supervise myself. I have to know who they're listening to, what they're reading & what influences they're being exposed to. Until they're old enough to research for themselves I prefer to give them the religious education I want at home or if need be using tutors that I know personally & trust also at home & infront of my eyes.
Am not going to sit & wait & until I get surprised oneday by my child calling me an apostate or something. School is fine for math & science but the faith & morality of my kids is my responsibility & that of their father.
Dalulla, I agree with every word you justified.
You said them in the best way ever, I am really impressed, really!
I am still not sure about the Fayrouz thing, it has been officialy stated by the owners that it is free of alcohol, and now you say your father tested it by himself, are we being fooled in this country till this extent?
All Egyptians drink fayrouz normally now!
Please ya Dalulla, contact me as I need your opinion in the Fayrouz issue.
Eman m,
If you would like to make sure yourself, take a sample to any lab and check it out, just don't say what it is, tell them u need to check if it ferments for sure or not.
I mentioned that the percentage is very low, but is there for fact wallaho a3lam. My father is a manager in a pesticide factory and when he heard of the rumor tested it himself in their lab. He said that after it is opened it begins the fermentation process slowly but surely and a percentage of alcohol is present. If left for more hours opened it ferments more and more, up to 24 hours can serve as an alcoholic dring, may be cooled and drank and will infact be an alcoholic beverage. To make sure, do this process yourself. get some small tubes or whatever, keep it opened and label ur tubes, and keep taking samples at intervals throughout the 24 hours of the day and test each one and see for yourself. Stop drinking it till u check it out for urself.
:-)
twosret,
Dalulla,
I know that Loulou have a good head on her shoulders, it is just the nature of the virtual discussions that creates misunderstandings sometimes. Even if you both disagree I think all is good.
I'm not a muslim so I won't comment much on Islamic schools because I have never been to one and it is hard for me to evaluate.
Fair enough, ofcourse like anything in this life, not all are perfect, but what is noticable now a days is the efforts are much better to properly give the children the proper ethics Islam embodies.
I want to point out that Catholic Schools are very strict and are all over the world and Nuns used to manage those schools based on the Christian faith. I'm Orthodox not Catholic but I was taught the Catholic faith in school. My question is why the muslims are OK with the Catholic schools and are not OK with Islamic schools? I find it kind of hypocrisy for a Muslim family to put it's full trust in a Catholic school and not an Islamic one.
Some families are not into islam much twosret (unfortunately). THey feel that ethics are something and religion something else. Which i find very strange. Religion is the source of ethics and moral standards since the creation of mankind. So one should not segregate. But i guess this is a long story of its own. I went to a school in Saudi Arabia. It was not labeled Islamic, but the attention given to Islamic Education and Quraan were just great. Served me well al hamd lillah. I know look back and feel grateful to my teachers and to the school and to King Fahd (Allah yer7amo ya rab). REally we were taught so much good stuff in there. Stuff that is essential to life and especially human to human relationships.
I'm against taking the name of God out of schools. Kids are out there in a cruel world and encounter insanity everyday. They are the target of the alcohol business, smoking business, sex business and teaching them their religion in school is not a disaster for pete's sake.
I totally agree.
Out of curiousty, who is Pete? A saint by any chance?
I think there should be a choice for parents who wish to do the religious teachings at home rather than school.
And also for ones who want the opposite as well in addition to home teachings (that is if they have enough time). Also the kids.. If religion takes place in all aspects of their lives then they will learn not to segregate it ..They will understand that it is what their lives are all about and that it helps and pushes forward and strengthens one in life and in the afterlife too.
As for parents teaching religion....let us be practical and ask ourselves How many parents take the time to teach their children their religion at home really?
WEll not all parents do have that time. But there are choices, some parents get to get private tutors at home or take their kids to the mosque or church. But i still feel it is essential to be at school, to receive importance as any other subjects inorder to give it importance.
"Out of curiousty, who is Pete? A saint by any chance?"
Thanks for your reply we seem to agree on the main points. When I say for Pete's sake it is just an expression and have nothing to do with saints. Sorry for the confusion.
I was pleasantly surprised to know you went to an Islamic school and also moonlightshadow attended Islamic school. It only shows that if the Islamic school picked carefully away from extremism it can be produce awesome results. People can easily form a wrong impression because you bring up God and the Prophet and use Quaranic verses. The world has gone mad and people can't distinguish between the love of God and the extreme trends.
Islam has been hijacked by few and it is the new kid on the block for the world to scapegoat. I strongly believe that When you look at the number of the Muslims in the world verses some that took it out of context you will see that the percentage is really low.
I personally think that It was the Germans, then the blacks, then the Japanese and now it is the Arabs turn.
Twosret,
I am really glad by your flexibility in discussing issues, and really glad that you get now the main issue.
We have here, as you mentioned, two examples of graduates of Islamic schools, Dallula and Moon, and they are really great characters with great personailities (as I can feel); neither extremists nor closed minded or personalities.
Eman,
I am trying to understand what this is all about. I've lived long enough in the US since 9/11 to understand the attacks on Islam.
I will read again this whole thread to get a better idea of why muslims together are in disagreement.
Islamic schools in Egypt is different than Madrassa in Pakistan (I'm assuming). It is interesting to know more about them as I didn't live long enough in Egypt to encounter them.
With Regards,
Twosret
Dalulla,
While I was searching for a reason of this heated debate of the so called thinkers,educated, and the better muslim people that uses their brains, I came across this entry on fromcairo.blogspot.com
"From Cairo, with love.
Free thoughts and reflections of an ordinary Egyptian.
Wednesday, August 17, 2005
Egypt has it all
Wet, veiled and topless. Viewer discretion advised!
http://photos22.flickr.com/34640142_c9354c77a7.jpg
See also, Lovers in Cairo!
Picture will be removed soon.
posted by Mohamed at 12:55 AM "
The picture is of two veiled women and a topless woman. Why would the picture be removed soon?
I think I solved the mystery!
yeah i saw it. ghareeba awy. and what was the point?
so what is the answer to the mystery
Doshar,
Have you heard of the term passive aggressive?
yes i sure did twosret. but the good thing about passive agressiveness, is that you can ignore it
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